Dave Mazour

Position Held: SCS, McCook, 1966 - 68; Western Representative, SWCC, 1968 - 1970; SWCC/NRC Staff, 1970 - 1975; Manager, Little Blue NRD, 1975 - 1985; CNPPID Staff, 1986 - 1994; Tri-State Generation and Transmission, 1994 - 2012; Part Time Staff, NEWBA, 2012 - time of interview

Interviewer: Jim Barr

Associated NRDs:

Little Blue NRD


MR. BARR: This is Jim Barr. It's August 20th. We're in Sutherland, Nebraska, visiting with Dave Mazour. And, Dave, would you want to start out with kind of a little background on yourself?

MR. MAZOUR: Well, with respect to this NRD project, I graduated from the University in 1966 and worked my first two years out of McCook, Nebraska, for the Soil Conservation Service. And then in 1968 I was approached by, at the time it was the Nebraska Soil and Water Conservation Commission, to come to work for them as a western representative. And so I worked out of Alliance, Nebraska, for the state for two years, from '68 to '70, and then transferred to Lincoln in 1970 and worked through 1975. Concurrent with that I was working on a master's degree at the University of Nebraska in water resources economics. I'm not sure what they call it now, but that's what I call it. And then in 1975 I went to work for 10 years with the Little Blue Natural Resource District out of Davenport, Nebraska.

MR. BARR: What did you do afterwards, just as a matter of --

MR. MAZOUR: Well, yes, after that I farmed and I was farming, had a small farm concurrent with the NRD job. And after 10 years I had that paid for and my dad was retiring so I farmed my farm, his farm and part of my uncle's farm for two years and found that I was going backwards financially in that world. I wanted to send my kids to college and so I started looking for another job, and actually everything I looked for, nothing came to fruition. But I did get a call from the Central Nebraska Public Power and Irrigation District and they were having some struggles with re-licensing some of the hydros at McConaughy. And so I looked like a good fit, so we moved off the farm to Holdrege and I worked there for nine years and working on re-licensing and other matters. And then after that moved to -- we thought we had all the problems on the Platte River solved, so I thought I would try something a little bit different. So I had the opportunity to go to work in governmental affairs for an electric, a consumer-owned electric generation and transmission utility called Tri-State Generation and Transmission out of, well, it's the Denver area but the office is in Westminster and worked there for 16, 18 years, something like that.

MR. BARR: What -- you started -- you were in the McCook area with the Soil Conservation Service and back in the early years with the NRD. Do you want to just visit a little bit about what you did there?

MR. MAZOUR: Yeah, in those early years the work was primarily working as a conservationist working with farmers and water shed districts on just practices to improve the conservation efforts on the farms. And so I really didn't hear much about the political efforts in Nebraska to change legislation. And but in 1968 when I went to work out of Alliance as a western representative, it all fell squarely in my lap and became part of my responsibility, was to represent the state, represent the ideas that Warren Fairchild had developed and seek to get support from the folks in basically the western maybe third of Nebraska, is the territory I covered. Very, very interesting opportunity to do that because Warren was so persuasive and his enthusiasm level was so high that you could just -- as you would hear him make a presentation, you would just get really caught up in it. And I recall coming out of a meeting with him and a couple of us were talking and everyone was just so enthused about these ideas that Warren had. And then, okay, now what did he really say? And so, you know, the enthusiasm would carry you a long way when listening to Warren. And he might even go right by the facts that were in his presentation. So that took a little bit of work to try and, you know, dig a little bit deeper and find the factual basis for everything that he was saying. But he was just so enthusiastic, and his way, his presentation I recall when I first moved to Lincoln in 1970 I was to drive Warren to a, it was an Arbor Day meeting at one of the colleges. It might have been Doane. But, anyway, I was driving him, and Arbor Day on April -- is it April 22nd?

MR. BARR: Something like that. You know, I don't remember exactly.

MR. MAZOUR: Well, anyway, he was to be the speaker at the college and then he had found out that morning that it was -- I believe it must have been 1972 because it was the first Earth Day when there was to be a --

MR. BARR: I think it was '71.

MR. MAZOUR: '71, okay, so we were on the way and Warren says, man, he says, I just found out this morning that this is not to be a talk on Arbor Day. It's supposed to be a talk on Earth Day. And so he was kind of going through, and he had the set of slides, and I'll guarantee you, when we got there and he made the presentation using the same slides, essentially the same thing he did for Arbor Day, and he had, with just a few tweaks, made it sound like and it looked like he had practiced an Earth Day speech for months. It was amazing. The speaking quality that Warren had was absolutely amazing.

MR. BARR: What else did you do in your role at the Soil and Water Conservation Commission that might relate to the NRDs a little?

MR. MAZOUR: Well, it was primarily to -- Duane Chamberlain was my supervisor and the position had been set up -- Orville Caskey had held it before me and the position was set up to help the local districts through some of, you know, the requirements, the filing requirements they might have or different things. But then since the timing was also, you know, for the -- you know, when the NRD law was being discussed, that became a big part of the job, was to work with them. I know that there were pockets of -- I mean, pretty stiff opposition to the NRD law. And Scottsbluff was one of them. There was a pocket in North Platte. And it was typically where there were established organizations that -- in the two that I mentioned the established organizations were not so much the Soil and Water Conservation districts, but the irrigation districts that were concerned about that -- they were concerned that any change in the law would upset -- well, in Scottsbluff the argument was put forth that this would change the compact requirements between Nebraska and Wyoming. And so, you know, whether -- those fears I think were capitalized on by those who didn't want to see change. And it was a huge undertaking to try and -- because if they had their lawyer telling them it would create a problem, a young graduate out of college sure couldn't take care of their fears, because they wanted to protect those water rights and they did not want to upset the agreement that Nebraska had with Wyoming.

MR. BARR: At that time was there talk of having the irrigation districts become a part of the NRDs or --

MR. MAZOUR: Early on everything was open, and, you know, maybe because of some of this disagreement is why there was a carve out for irrigation districts. I'm not real sure, because I was not involved in the discussions in Lincoln where the tactical decisions were made on what could pass and what couldn't pass.

MR. BARR: You mentioned Duane Chamberlain and in many of my interviews Duane's name has come up. Would you comment a little about Duane and any role he might have had in all this?

MR. MAZOUR: You know, in the NRD law he was a true follower. I mean, he was a soldier. So he would do whatever he was told. But Duane was a very, very interesting character and I didn't mind being micromanaged because I needed all the help I could get. But as I would travel, I would put together my weekly schedule, and I would make like maybe three or four stops a day and end with a meeting at night. And every place I would go, I would walk in the door and they would say, we knew you were coming today. Duane -- so he knew pretty much, he kept track of -- you know, he didn't have a chip in my ankle, but he knew where I was going. I really enjoyed Duane and I learned a lot from him.

MR. BARR: He must have had a little bit to do with some of the direct managers' initial appointments.

MR. MAZOUR: I think he probably did. You know, probably Ron Bishop, probably Ron Fleecs, because, you know, he knew since he traveled out there as well, the NRD system really meld the Soil Conservation Service and pulled people that they felt could move into, you know, NRD positions. And it was great for people like that who were working for another district or, you know, working for the federal government and wanted something a little more challenging. So, yeah.

MR. BARR: Did you have any special assignments from Warren in terms of -- related to politics or anything like that?

MR. MAZOUR: Well, there's two incidents that pop in my mind. The second one will answer your question more, but the first one was, you know, I took seriously my job description. And it said that I was to be the spokesman for the, well, we'll just call it the Nebraska Natural Resources Commission because I don't know exactly what year it was. But I had a meeting in Valentine and so I was to be the spokesman, and this was a meeting where Warren was coming out as well. So I felt that even though he was the boss of the boss of the boss of me, that my job description said that I was the spokesman for the Natural Resources Commission. And I think he probably scratched his head at this young punk up there. You know, the way I wanted to actually MC the meeting, and I did, and it all worked out fine, but it was kind of a curious situation and I hadn't quite figured out why -- well, it was a great meeting. But I really was -- felt I was the spokesman for the Natural -- and but when I moved to Lincoln and the politics was pretty invigorated, so to speak, in terms of who was lining up for and against the legislation. And there was a group that had formed. I think it was called Nebraskans for Nebraska Soil and Water. And some of the names I remember, Irwin Matulka, Al Smith, there was a colonel, a retired colonel.

MR. BARR: Charlie Gold?

MR. MAZOUR: Charlie Gold, yeah, and these are some of the names that I remember. And Warren had heard that there was a political rally developing somewhere in, you know, a small town in the upper reaches of the Upper Big Blue Basin. I don't remember the town. And so he sent me to go and hear what was happening at the political rally. Well, interestingly, this was the year that Exon was ramping up his campaign as he was running for the Senate for the first time. And he showed up at the rally and he was a strong supporter, as he told them, strong supporter of their efforts to stop this from happening. So I'm not sure if the words were exactly to stop it from happening, but it was -- the words were, you know, I'm strongly on your side, whatever message they were presenting to him. And so I came back and gave my report to Warren on that little mission that I had. But Warren was, you know, he was -- it was almost hard to believe that his education was as a soil scientist, a soil mapper because he is so much the opposite of what you would expect to be, someone who would go out and map soils. And the enthusiasm and the vision and the way he could get people going was, again, it was remarkable. I'm not sure a project like this would happen without someone like Warren.

MR. BARR: Well, this is one of the questions that has always come up in these interviews and elsewhere, is this is -- a lot of people say this is a good idea but why hasn't it happened in other states. And that is -- if you might speak to that. I don't know if you had any thoughts on that.

MR. MAZOUR: Yeah, it's a project that is -- when you look back at it and the changes that have to occur, and so you have to take people who are the -- you know, that actually believe in conservation efforts because -- and then because those are the people on the boards, and to move forward they have to sacrifice, you know, their role, their history, everything they have done for the sake of something new. And so it's a transforming process that is extremely difficult to get through because you have to get those people to move ahead. Fortunately, Nebraska had a number of those leaders, but they also had some people that were just fearful of change. And so it allowed for -- you know, the opposition could include the good, bad and the ugly, so to speak, because it could involve all of those elements of human nature and so to move forward it would take an extremely charismatic person and dedicated and Warren did that. And, you know, not to diminish anyone else, you know, the Maurice Kremers, and the Jules Burbachs, the Dale Williamsons, you know, all of these. But, you know, I remember hearing Warren during the legislative session and whether I heard it directly from Warren or Dale I'm not sure, but during the legislative session he would actually have to give a pep talk to Maurie Kremer at least once a week because it was tough. I mean, it was really tough.

MR. BARR: Did you remember anything else in particular between then and when you went to the NRD as manager either while you were at the University that relates to the NRDs?

MR. MAZOUR: Well, not any specific instances, but I do remember the nature of the people who were involved and those that were, you know, part of the old districts that eventually became -- that transitioned into the new ones. The nature of the people was just absolutely incredible. The dedication and, you know, how truly they believed in what they were doing. They were true stewards of the resources. And I want to make special mention of the north central area, the Valentine, the cowboy country and Jim Cook who -- and, you know, when I traveled up there, you know, I truly felt like I was part of the family insomuch that they would have socials, like ice cream socials or something like that on Sundays and then tie it in with a meeting. And I would get invited from Alliance to travel, you know, up into Keya Paha County or, you know, Cook was not in Valentine. He was in Keya Paha. But, you know, it was the nature of the people were just -- I mean, they would invite you. You just became part of their community and that was such a wonderful experience.

MR. BARR: At some point you became a manager of the Little Blue NRD, unless you had something ahead of that.

MR. MAZOUR: Well, the last couple years, well, the five years I was in Lincoln I worked on the master's degree and so many of the issues that were covered in that program that Warren actually covered in his talks. It made that the easiest college experience. Maybe being married and having two children at the time probably had something to do with it as well. But it was really very, very enhancing to me in the career. And then when the resources development fund was authorized in legislation, then I was asked to put together the rules and regulations and there were a number of folks that -- I think you were involved in that.

MR. BARR: Yeah, Donna and I were involved in it, too.

MR. MAZOUR: Donna Cederston and Warren White. But, anyway, Gail Star and I took a trip to Sacramento, California, to study the -- California had a bill called the Davis Scrunsky Act. And the Davis Scrunsky Act was what would some people would say were the crumbs from the table that they wanted to give to the northern part of California in exchange for the water plan that moved all the water from the north to the south. So the Davis Scrunsky Act was a program that would provide some dollars for resource development in the north in exchange for moving so much of the water south. And so it was really a good one to study. Gail and I had really a nice time and learned an awful lot from that. And then that became kind of the primary knowledge base that we used to develop the resources development fund. And then the resources development fund, you know, became a big part of what we tried to achieve and accomplish with the Little Blue NRD and get some of those funds. Because we had a lot of needs that the competition from Ron Bishop and all his projects and Steve Oltman and, you know, Ron Bishop -- Ron Fleecs and Ron Bishop, you know. So it was -- there was an awful lot of competition for those funds.

MR. BARR: As I recall, Steve got the first --

MR. MAZOUR: Probably.

MR. BARR: So what are some of your experiences with the NRD? And I can't remember exactly when you started with the NRD.

MR. MAZOUR: 1975.

MR. BARR: '75, so it had been running a little bit prior to -- and you would have been there about the time the first elected boards --

MR. MAZOUR: Yeah, the first manager was Warren Rice, who was the manager of the 32-mile Creek Watershed District, and so he took over as the manager. He was a retired federal employee with the agriculture research service and then he went to work for 32-mile and then the manager for the first couple years at Little Blue. And when I came in 1975 the board was the reduced board. So he dealt with the larger numbers than I did.

MR. BARR: Well, as I recall, the larger board was the amelioration of the various board members of the districts that were brought together and then they usually picked the executive committee to run the day-to-day or whatever.

MR. MAZOUR: Yeah. We still had a very large board. As I recall, we had 17, which is a large board. But it seemed to work.

MR. BARR: What were some of the initial projects and programs that you worked with for the Little Blue? Or what were some of the issues that you were faced with in the Little Blue? Maybe that's a better way to ask the question.

MR. MAZOUR: Well, you know, the extension of the flood control issues because there were a couple watershed projects in the Little Blue, both in the Fairbury, Hebron area and then up in the 32-mile Creek. The emerging issue was the declines in the water table and those issues, you know, became the models really indicated we needed to do something quickly. And, fortunately, the models weren't quite accurate because if some of the projects had come to pass, there would be much more serious problems in both the Upper Big Blue and the Little Blue now. But there were issues that both the Upper Big Blue and the Little Blue needed to deal with because the water table was dropping. We had some dry periods. And so monitoring that, encouraging water conservation and actually looking into forming groundwater protection areas within the district were big issues for us at the Little Blue. Water recharge, we developed a couple of water recharge projects because of the groundwater issue. And then we also wanted to include, at the time in the rural areas they would be considered fringe issues, but they were important as well. And that was wildlife habitat and recreation. And so we tried to make the projects that would lend themselves to multi-purpose. So a flood control project in many cases would be modified to include wildlife habitat and recreation as well, if that was possible. I remember Maurice Kremer coming down to a meeting once and he says, Dave, this was after I had been there a couple years, he says, if you would come up with a phrase to describe what you and your board wanted to do in the Little Blue, what would it be? And without thinking about it, out of my mouth I says, well, we want something for everyone. He thought that was a nice theme to have because the large share of the taxes did come from the urban areas. Not that we had any urban areas, but the cities, the Hastings, the Fairbury and the Hebron. And, yes, a strong agricultural and a protected conservation base is important, but, you know, they kind of liked to have, you know, some emphasis on wildlife habitat and recreation as well.

MR. BARR: Any other comments about the district that you would like to make?

MR. MAZOUR: I guess I should make mention. You know, you talked about projects. We had Big Sandy Creek projects which were funded by the resources development fund, the plan there. But the other project that we worked very hard on that did not come to fruition was the transfer of water from the Platte River Basin to the Little Blue. And we worked very hard on that. The data that we had analyzed from the Platte River showed that there was unappropriated water at the time and actually got a ruling from the Department of Water Resources that there was unappropriated water. And so that issue, you know, the first time that Neuberger was the director, Mike Jess was the assistant. But John Neuberger felt, concluded, after legal advice, that he did not have the authority to -- even though there was unappropriated water, he didn't have the authority to grant the permit because of the Osterman decision back in the, I think it was in the late '30s. So we went to the Supreme Court and challenged that and the Supreme Court said, yeah, John, you do have the authority. So then he granted the water right and it went to the Supreme Court again and the national environmental community became involved in that case and it was -- they -- in their shot at it, the second time at the Supreme Court, it was argued by a lawyer out of the D.C. area that the -- at that time our plan was to transfer the water right, and we did. Our intention was to transfer the water right from the Little Blue NRD into an irrigation district which was formed by the group, the Cather Land Reclamation District, because that was the more appropriate local institution to develop that irrigation project. And the attorney out of Georgetown had argued that the Little Blue NRD did not have the authority and that political subdivisions, they can only do those things that are specifically authorized in the legislation. And in the NRD legislation it said that an NRD can acquire a water right, but it didn't say that an NRD could transfer one. And so, you know, that got kicked back. In hindsight, in looking at the Platte River and the Platte River issues the way they are, you know, that's a blessing. I see it as a blessing that that didn't go forward because the water supply would not have been consistent enough to, you know -- well, who knows. Anyway, it happened and we worked really hard on it and had quite some experiences in the Supreme Court. But it was an example of the types of things you can do with an NRD. The NRD was so broad in its enabling authority that it allowed a local unit of government to decide and what they wanted to do within their jurisdiction. Now I suppose that maybe Warren and Jules Burbach and Maurice Kremer, if they had to do it -- Maurie Kremer not, but they probably should have put in there that an NRD can transfer a water right. I'm saying this with a grin on my face. Maurice Kremer would not be -- yeah, he would, too, because he was from the Blues.

MR. BARR: Yep.

MR. MAZOUR: Yep, especially Maurie would. Another story, and this may not be -- but it's kind of related. It's to NRDs. Rudy Kokes from the Loups. And he would just -- he was in the chamber when Maurie Kremer was and he was not a supporter of NRDs. And so we had some meeting down in -- this is when I was still working for the state. And, you know, there was some -- Rudy was running for the legislature again and so there was a few articles that came out in the Loup papers that Maurie Kremer is trying to steal our water. So we're sitting there after the meeting and Rudy is there, Maurie is there, drinking beer, except for Maurie, and they are kind of exchanging, you know, why do you do that, you know. I don't want to steal your water, you know. We'd like what you don't need. And Rudy just kept kind of acting on him. And then Maurie left and I says, Rudy, why do you do that all the time? And he says, that's all I have to do to get elected. He says, I don't have to have any kind of a campaign. He says, you know, it just gets close and all I have to do is I am protecting the Loups from Maurie stealing our water. So, yeah, there's some interesting characters.

MR. BARR: Any others you'd like to mention?

MR. MAZOUR: I can't think of any.

MR. BARR: Any board members or leaders in the Little Blue, for instance, that should be recalled?

MR. MAZOUR: Darrell Bowder was -- he was a true, solid conservation minded individual and so, you know, he was a leader in that area. I'm trying to think of the guy that got under his skin in the Fairbury area. He was on one of the watershed boards and he was a retired military. His name escapes me right now. He actually is John Turnbull's uncle, Con Callaway. And Con was -- I mean, he did not have the background that Darrell had, but because he had -- he was retired military and I don't think he even was raised in Nebraska. But when he retired from the military he took over the family farm ranch down in that area between Hebron and Fairbury, very, very -- he was a brilliant man. And to get someone like Con Callaway on your side, you know, was very helpful because, you know, he would test you. I think he probably was not supportive of NRDs but he would really push the envelope on testing. And Vernon Pierson out of Shickley on the groundwater issues, he was another brilliant man that, as the manager there, that was my -- I could always, as I prepared for meetings, what kind of questions will Vernon ask me. He was a true -- but, boy, he'd get on your can if you didn't have all the answers, he really would. So there was some discipline that he brought to the board, but it was wonderful people.

MR. BARR: Is there anything about your time with the Central and on that McConaughy issue that you'd like to mention in relation to this general area?

MR. MAZOUR: Well, yeah. One of the interesting things that happened that I was not a part of in the development of the NRDs and the boundaries was at one time there was to be a natural resources division of a public power and irrigation district. And that was negotiated. I don't know who negotiated it, but I know that Ted Johnson, who was on the Central Nebraska board at the time, and Warren were -- I'm presuming that they negotiated that to be part of it and that eventually got thrown out. And I'm not sure of the politics behind that. But as I think about that and what we are seeing now with the conjunctive use issues that have developed between the Platte River and the groundwater mound, I'm just wondering if that would have come to fruition if that might have produced some mechanics on attitude that would make it a little bit easier today to move the central Nebraska system into the conjunctive management program that it potentially can do. So that's a thought that I had, you know, and it came after some of the NRDs and the Central Platte and Twin Platte had developed a plan to use the central system. That's a whole different item of debate, but there is animosity there, and I'm just wondering if that division had been established, and it was actually part of the same decision base, the same people, if things would be happening differently.

MR. BARR: Well, any other thoughts in relation to how NRDs worked or how --

MR. MAZOUR: Well, yeah. In the last year and a half I have been working as a part-time employee. I'm most retired, but been working with this Water Balance Alliance which is approaching water management, you know, just from a community standpoint rather. And it's been started by rural electrics. And it's been a little bit interesting to see the resistance from NRDs and some of my friends that I have known for years and years and some of these names that I mentioned in this interview. There just seems to be a little resistance. And I can understand, you know, seeing a new group come in and what the hell are they doing here? Why are they telling us what to do? Are they saying we are not doing a good enough job? And so I guess the challenge that I would see is for the NRDs now is after, how many years is it, 50?

MR. BARR: Forty-some.

MR. MAZOUR: Yeah, after all these years, you know, that was all being developed on the idea of moving forward, new change and not being captured by the way you've always done things. And so I think there's a little bit of a challenge out here for the NRDs to not get caught in that spot, to not be, you know, the same issue of protecting the way you've always done things. Now wouldn't be a bad time to take a look and see, okay, can I set aside and look through this through a little bit different lens. So I guess that may be a little bit of a challenge.

MR. BARR: Anything else that you'd like?


MR. BARR: Well, thank you. Appreciate your time and effort on this.

(Second recording begins.)

MR. MAZOUR: Another one of my assignments when I moved to Lincoln in 1970 was at that time working on the state water plan, we had this three screen or three projector slide presentation that I did present out in western Nebraska quite a bit. So Warren asked me if I would present that to this class that was -- it was not Fisher but I'm trying to think of the name of -- there was an engineering professor and a law professor who had this joint class on water resources planning. The name will come to me in a little bit. Oh, gosh, I'm --

MR. BARR: Well, I remember --

MR. MAZOUR: I'm feeling embarrassed now.

MR. BARR: I later went to that class and I'm having trouble remembering that because I remember both of those, the engineering professor and --

MR. MAZOUR: I want to say Marlet. Marlet is the name.

MR. BARR: And the lawyer was Dick Hornesberger.

MR. MAZOUR: Hornesberger. Okay, so they had this joint class. It was a water resources class. So it was law students and engineering students. So I go in and I mean I really, since I had a lot of practice with it and I've been pumped up by Warren, I can do really well. And so I gave that with great enthusiasm and, you know, thought these were valuable minds and they would just -- and the questions I got were just absolutely -- I couldn't believe the kinds of questions I got, you know, from these students. I mean, they just drilled me. They challenged me on things that I said, that were part of the script and I just came out of there, I felt like I had been through not hell, purgatory and I had really been pushed hard. And a couple years later then when I was actually taking that class in water resources economics under, you know, the same two professors, and so that was part of their program, to have a presentation from the state water plan by the Natural Resources Commission, and so both Marlet and Hornesberger, they spent like a full couple hours preparing the students, this is what they're going to say. This is kind of a weak spot in their argument and it happened again. I don't remember whether Steve Gall or someone came but it was just like you could just see, where is this coming from? So I mean I really, really enjoyed -- you know, that was one of my favorite classes in the master's program. And maybe there still is at this time, but it seemed like state government was small enough at that time that there was a lot of interplay between personalities at the University and the state agencies. A lot of people became your friends.

MR. BARR: Who was your major professors at the University at that point, who you worked with mainly?

MR. MAZOUR: Oh, gosh.

MR. BARR: Well, we don't have to do that.

MR. MAZOUR: Well, Fisher, Lloyd Fisher, I took several of his classes but he was not my advisor. And Maurie Baker was my advisor. And I actually worked on, you know, for my paper, my master's paper I actually wrote a paper on pricing policies, managing water supplies for municipal systems. And I used Lincoln as an example because Lincoln had promotional pricing. The more you used the less the water was. And they were at a time when they needed to expand their well field. And so, you know, I challenged in the paper and then the Lincoln paper got a hold -- somehow got a hold of my paper and they wanted to do an interview. And so I kind of got in the middle of some politics. Dale was kind and he didn't fire me. But what was really interesting is that a couple years after that and after I left Lincoln, Jim Cook claims that I left Lincoln so I wouldn't be subjected to the same water policies that I had advocated when I wrote the paper because a couple years later they changed the policy to really what fit the situation. But Maurie Baker was my advisor and it was really -- I won't tell this story.

MR. BARR: Anything else you want to add?


MR. BARR: Okay, thank you.